Ragtag the 3rd

Thursday, April 28, 2005

Big Pharaoh.

Big Pharaoh (aka GM) is one of my favourite bloggers. I love his style and happen to agree with most of what he has to say. I've posted a comment to one of his posts regarding Mubarak's 5th presidential nomination. He was kind enough to answer me back in an entire post. Due to space limitations I prefered to respond on my blog.

Here is my response to your post:

GM I understand your concerns. I'd like to clarify a few points though.

"You are treating "liberalism" as if it is a dogma, an ideology, or a creed."

GM, liberalism is actually an ideology and it runs counter to conservatism on the political spectrum of most democracies. Its politics favour multiculturalism, freedom of speech and press, tolerance and are opposed to nationalism. Economically liberalism advocates free market and free trade while allowing limited government intervention.

I think what you mean by liberalism here is civil liberties and individual rights. Liberalism vehemently advocates civil liberties though, but the two terms aren't interchangeable. Personally I agree that civil liberterties and idividual rights should be an important part of any future egyptian constitution.

"However, Islamists and the Muslim Brotherhood do not believe in the above principles even if they are pretending to believe in them today."

The Muslim Brotherhood are not as stringent as they where in the past, and judging by their active involvement with Kefaya, they seem to be willing to accept the concept of representative democracy. Contrary to popular belief though the Muslim brotherhood are not as united as they once where. Now they are more or less fragmented, with more calling for moderation and reform of religious concepts. You have to acknowledge that the key players of the Muslim Brotherhood are highly educated people who may be conservative but are not extremists. Don't get me wrong, i'm more or less a liberal myself.

"All what I am hoping for is this: Mubarak gets his fifth term then he lifts his hands off liberals so that they appear on Egypt' political scene. We will then hold free fair elections once they appear and become strong enough to compete with the Islamists."

GM, believe me, Mubarak and his cronies have no intention whatsoever of giving any breathing space, neither to the Muslim Brotherhood nor to the Liberals. He and his gang understand very well that doing so is like giving the rope to person who's bent on hanging you. Not in one nor ten terms will he change his politics. He'll continue his underhanded tactics of suppression. Besides I think the fact that Mubarak is getting his fifth term is defacto by now. We shouldn't offer him any support whatsoever though.

"Democracy is like a medicine, you take it gradually. If you took it all at once, you die."

Looking at the history of the world, the best transformations to democracy in history where radical. In our part of the world the only possible way out of tyranny is through surgery not medicine.

"You are putting the word "liberal" beside and word "islamist" as if they are too competing thoughts or ideologies."

Infact they are two competing ideologies, especially here in Egypt. However they could possibly coexist within a system of representative democracy as two parties. Mubarak wouldn't allow that though.

"What you are saying above is what the "book" says. The "book" says "people should choose", period. I do not object to that, I long for the day when Egyptians get the chance to choose their own future; however, we need to look at realities on the ground. Egypt's dictatorship literally wiped all liberals out of the political scene; it would lead to an utter disaster if we simply kicked Mubarak out and allowed a free ballot box in such an unfair political arena."

The solution here would be to reeducate the general public and advocate democracy. Movements like Kefaya are trying to do just that. No one stream of politics in egypt should be disrespected or alienated. Thanks to Nassers gang this country has no political spectrum, its about time we get one, whatever the cost. Desperate times call for desperate measrues, and judging by history only radical change can transform societies, a step by step aproach won't work here.

"Can you guarantee that there will be this second chance? Was there a second chance in Iran?"

You never can tell GM, but you should have more faith in your countrymen. Then again I think Iran is in the process of undergoing a second change again soon. Besides you have to consider the forces that are actually pushing for change in Egypt. These forces are mainly the Liberals (Ayman Nour, Saad el din Ibrahim, etc.) and Kifaya which is actually lead by a christian (Dr. George Isaac) and which is a representative of much of egypts truly independent opposition (including the MB). Kefaya actually advocates a modern representative democratic constitution and civil liberties. These are good signs GM, when compared to Iran prior to the colapse of the Shah regime. GM the english say "no pain, no gain", they also say "you can't win the lottery without buying a ticket."

It's about time we egyptian got over our fears and stop mubmling about what should be done and start doing it.

About the Asyllum thing, after 9/11 I don't think many countries would be willing to take us in anyway ;-). So lets just wait and see how things work out.

71 Comments:

  • I linked to your post on my blog. Keep on blogging, you have a lot to say and the world needs to listen :)

    By Blogger BP, at 28 April, 2005 15:03  

  • I think what is confusing people is that, especially in America, those who currently call themselves "liberals" are actually ideologically tied to the basic principles of Marxism, and on the whole, supported the idea of keeping monsters like Saddam and the Taliban in place, for purely selfish political reasons. As I suggested in the comments thread of GM's post, the best idea is to use the term classical liberals, because the beliefs of people like Thomas Jefferson are currently referred to as classical liberalism.

    By Blogger J. Francis Lehman, at 28 April, 2005 17:12  

  • I disagree with your thoughts on new immigrants. Here in the States, ALL New immagrents are harrassed and abused. It's a tradition that everyone goes thru. It's not as bad nowdays as it once was. See "Gangs of New York" to find out how my ancestors were welcomed. America is not an easy place to live. People that immigrate to America should do so for their children. A child growing up in America has no limits other then what that child places on themselves. Even the American indian is an immigrant, they just came by foot instead of ship or airplane.
    2 ways to get to America. Put your name on a list or get married to an American. Pay me now or pay me later. The List takes a long time, but you can prepare, sort of. I had an British friend who had been coming to America on business for over a decade when he final married an America girl. He was amazed by the difference it made being a citizen. I wasn't.

    By Anonymous sod_off_swamppy, at 28 April, 2005 18:22  

  • Iran is a poor model of reversable change; even when it happens, it will only be after decades of blighted lives and civic society. And there may be nukes involved before it's all done. Don't be too sanguine about the "one man, one vote, one time" scenarios.

    RtT;
    say what you will about Mubarak, he's no Saddam Hussein or Quadaffi. It remains possible he can be pushed into reasonably rapid reform.

    Historical comparisons are kind of doubtful these days; some of the situations in the ME are bordering on unique and unprecedented.

    By Blogger Brian H, at 28 April, 2005 22:04  

  • I'm not sure why you think history favours radical transformation to democracy. Britain, USA, South Korea and Taiwan were gradual. And I don't think that Australia's creation by vote in 1901 was "radical". The laws didn't change overnight. The infrastructure was all in place already. There's only a handful of countries with a democracy as old as Australia's.

    There's something more important than a democracy - having a RATIONAL HUMANIST government. People will tell you that separation of church and state is required. But actually that is just one aspect of what is required in order to get a RATIONAL (science-based) government. Communism was another "religion" that a government shouldn't be allowed to implement. Individuals have a right to not be ruled by a dogma. Islam is another dogma that all Egyptians need to be protected from. You can start by changing any law that has the word "Muslim" or "Christian" in it, e.g. "A Muslim woman can't marry a Christian man".

    If it were up to me, I would topple Mubarak and install a rational humanist government until such time as the people have been educated enough that they don't wish to force their dogma (Islam) onto others, and respect the minority religions as EQUALS. At the moment the majority of Egyptians are religious bigots. This problem needs to be addressed first.

    By Blogger Paul Edwards, at 29 April, 2005 05:28  

  • Paul edwards,
    There are a number of ways a democratic government can come into existence.

    1. Just as you mentioned this could be done at the stage of state creation e.g. the US, Canada, Australia and even Taiwan (following its independence from the UK).

    2. A compromise between the reigning monarch and powerful political adversaries, e.g. UK (the magna carta and war of the barons).

    2. At a stage of tyranny and dictatorshity ip , i.e where the roots of fear, corruption and injustice run deep into the society. In this case change can either come from the reigning authorby using its absolute power in an atempt to transform the society and hence giving up power, e.g. Turkey under Kemal Atatuk. I hoped this would be the case in Egypt, however it seems the regime is rotten at the core.

    The other scenario is to uproot the regime and take the nation into a period of messy transitional governance from which (hopefully) a more democratic regime could emerge, e.g. Iraq (still in transition), France(the 1st republic) Ukraine,Hungary,Italy, Poland.

    3. A co

    By Blogger ragtag_the_3rd, at 29 April, 2005 06:21  

  • Paul,

    Woooow, just now I've noticed the part about most Egyptians being religious bigots. That was a little harsh. Maybe that's what your media is portraying but it definetly is not the truth. Egyptians are religious people (both Muslims and Copts) but are far from being bigots or xenophobes. A very few are extremist bigots Paul.

    By Blogger ragtag_the_3rd, at 29 April, 2005 07:22  

  • ragtag, read this:

    http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/04/religious-tolerance-in-egypt.html

    'Waleed smiled and said “We would carry beating sticks and destroy and loot the hell out of them! Ok, I see your point!”'

    The fact that you need to protect churches says it all. The fact that you have laws that mention how different religions will be treated also says it all. Egypt needs to be de-Nazified. The diet of anti-Semetic, anti-American and anti-infidel and pan-Arab racism has taken its toll. These things are not healthy.

    If I had it my way, Australia would invade Egypt, I'd put GM in charge, and tell him to de-Nazify the country and hold elections when 90% of the country are not racist bigots. It is ironical that Britain and France were doing something about Nasser the Nazi, but the US "forced" them to leave him alone, and the US reaped the subsequent gratitude of Egypt on 9/11.

    By Blogger Paul Edwards, at 29 April, 2005 09:10  

  • Paul,

    I'm familiar with sandmonkey's blog and his style. If you paid any attention to his blogs heading you'd get a clue.

    I respect his opinions and agree with them to some. But sometimes he tends to exaggerate.

    I'm not saying that relations between Muslims and Christians couldn't be better. But most of us cetainly don't loath each other. After all we go to school/work, live together in the same buildings. Certainly there are some bigots on both sides, but what societies don't.

    About Christians having less rights than Muslims (with the exception of the church building laws), that is actually kind of funny. Neither Muslim nor Christians have many rights in the first place. In Egypt it doesn't matter if you're a Muslim or a Christian. If you're well connected, you can do whatever you want, and no one can dare say anything about it. If you're not (like me), then animals in Australia have more rights than you.

    e.g. Najib Saweres is a copt and he's one of the most powerful people in egypt.

    We have our differences and sometimes we have minor clashes but it's not your typical North-South Sudan relationship. If one of sandmonkey's pals said something nasty about christians that doesn't make it a rule.

    Paul, actually I think you are very opininated and have very strong feelings against Arabs and Muslims. Since, you've already made up your mind, there's not much I can do or say.

    I don't like it one people try to stereotype other people.That's what the Nazis did actually. Its a good thing that you can't have it your way. I'd vote for GM for president though :-).

    I'm going to post about Muslims in Egypt soon, please stay tuned.

    By Blogger ragtag_the_3rd, at 29 April, 2005 10:05  

  • Paul,

    I found your comments very inflamatory and unrealistic. Please quit using such terms because they are unfair to us and to westerners as a whole.

    By Blogger BP, at 29 April, 2005 10:18  

  • ragtag_the_3rd,

    whats your email..you didn't include it on your blog.

    By Blogger BP, at 29 April, 2005 10:20  

  • GM,

    I've put my e-mail onto the blog.

    By Blogger ragtag_the_3rd, at 29 April, 2005 12:31  

  • ragtag, "I think you are very opininated and have very strong feelings against Arabs and Muslims"

    I have very strong feelings against non-humanists (ie racists, sexists and religious bigots). You should see my comments against a Christian fundamentalist recently. I can give you the link if you want. I've got nothing against Arabs. Only racist Arabs. I've got something against Egyptians who cheer whenever a natural disaster hits America. I've got something against Egyptians who cheer 9/11. I've got something against Egyptians who couldn't give a damn about this racism. I've got something against Egyptians who care so much about every slight against Palestinians, while not giving a damn about the rape and slaughter in Sudan. BTW, Ali from "A Free Iraqi" is an Arab and one of the people I most respect in this world. I judge people by their ideology, not their race, and Egyptian ideology STINKS. It's not their fault though. If I'd been fed racist propaganda as a child, I'd be exactly the same. But bottom line is that Egypt needs to be de-Nazified. If it was able to be done with Germany, it can probably be done in Egypt too.

    GM, "I found your comments very inflamatory and unrealistic. Please quit using such terms because they are unfair to us and to westerners as a whole."

    Welcome to freedom of speech. If you or Egyptians judge all westerners by what I say, then that merely highlights a problem with Egyptians, not with westerners. You need to take opinion polls if you want to find out what westerners think. What I can tell you is that I am trying my best to CHANGE western opinion so that we WILL support the de-Nazification of the Middle East. And my comments may well be unfair to the Nazis of the Middle East. They are my enemy after all. I'm not trying to give equal rights to Nazis, I'm trying to crush the ideology of hate and allow classical liberalism to sweep the region. We have the technology required to do this. Modern wars are won in the air, and any western country should be able to take on the countries of the Middle East, one at a time. I believe that Australia should take matters into its own hands instead of relying on the US to do the right thing.

    By Blogger Paul Edwards, at 29 April, 2005 19:12  

  • "A child growing up in America has no limits other then what that child places on themselves."

    That is equally true in Britain and most other European countries.

    By Anonymous Don Cox, at 30 April, 2005 01:34  

  • Paul if you are interested in ideology then let me ask you this and start an ideological conversation with you .
    1- Why do you think man is created ?
    to be continued after you reply ...

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 01 May, 2005 04:22  

  • Anonymous, I believe that we are living in a computer simulation, and God is the computer programmer. And I believe that he likes to watch what we get up to the same way we like watching fish in a fish tank. The movies and music we create is non-stop entertainment for him. I believe that he has gone to a lot of effort to run the simulation over a period of millions of years (of course this can be speeded up in the simulation), so that we would find fossils and believe that we were created entirely by accident, because he doesn't want us to slavishly worship him, he wants us to not be sure whether there is a god or not so that we will do what we really want to do instead of what he "commands".

    I documented a lot of this at www.moatazilla.org

    By Blogger Paul Edwards, at 03 May, 2005 04:11  

  • Paul,
    It seems to me you're trying to start a new religion. You have issues my friend.

    By Blogger ragtag_the_3rd, at 03 May, 2005 15:50  

  • I am trying to renew Mu'tazilah, an old (extinct) sect of Islam. There's nothing wrong with that, it's the best religion in the world. Try finding a flaw in the logic. The explanation is sound.

    By Blogger Paul Edwards, at 04 May, 2005 04:29  

  • Much of the problem in the middleast is relgion used as nationalism other wise how would you explain the oppression of the Kurds who are muslim but not Arab.

    Both Jordian and Syria killed more arabs in one week than Israel killed since 67 war. Nothing is said about syria's killing of muslim brotherhood or Jordains black september.

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  • economic liberalism and political liberalism are not the same thing.

    By Blogger yochanan, at 15 November, 2005 15:34  

  • Economic liberalism is as integral a part of political liberalism as social liberalism is. Don't be fooled by American socialists masquerading as liberals, they're policies aren't liberal. US liberals call themselves libertarians to distinguish themselves from the undercover socialists.

    The US is, to my knowledge, the only country on the planet which struggles with the distinction between liberals and socialists. The definition is clear, and it is backed by the global consensus.

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